bagheera_san | this is like some kind of revelation

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this is like some kind of revelation

I have a German linguistics essay/termpaper to write (about something related to writing, written language etc - the technical term is graphemics or graphematics) and stupidly I thought that writing about online fandom from a linguistic perspective would be a cool idea. There are three problems with this:

1) it has to be in German, about German fandom
2) no one has ever written anything about this - the closest I've got are linguistic studies of chat communication, email, blogging etc. - mostly in English
3) linguistics isn't exactly my strong suit and I have no idea what I'm doing

But the biggest problem is definitely German fandom. I haven't so much as dipped a foot into the German part of fandom since I was about 17 because I abandoned it as soon as I started to write exclusively in English. I'm almost tempted to write a story in German just to see if I still can. All German fanfiction sounds terrible to me. Is this because you're more sensitive to bad style in your own language, or because I'm not finding the good stories (since so far I've only discovered the German equivalent of fanfiction.net) or because there's something wrong with non-English fandom in general? Fanfiction is largely anglophone, and English is where its stylistic conventions have developed. I assume (but I don't know if this is true) that German online fandom started as a translation/imitation of anglophone online fandom (and to some extent maybe Japanese fandom), with people trying to do the same thing but in their native language and that might be the reason why some of it sounds awkward.

For example, German fanfic authors LOVE gerunds and participles (the -ing forms of verbs). However, gerunds are typical of English, and sound awkward if you translate them directly into German - usually, where English can use a simple gerund, German needs slightly longer and more complicated phrases.

An example from the summary of a D/M fic:
"Mit dem Master an seiner Seite reist der Doktor immer noch durch das Universum, Welten entdeckend, beschützend, rettend."

The part in italics could be translated as "discovering, protecting and saving worlds". In English those three gerunds/participles sound perfectly okay and they fulfil the function of verbs (you could also say "they discover, protect and save worlds"). In German, a participle can't really function as a verb, it's commonly used as an adjective or an adverb, so the author should have used a different verb form instead of a participle. Now, I don't think this author took an English fic and translated it badly in German - I think s/he either reads a lot of English fic or is imitating the style of other fanfic writers who read too much English. The result is incredibly awkward writing (I wonder if I sound like that when I write English - or if I'd sound like that if I wrote German prose.)

ETA: I finally understand why having the Doctor (or the Master) use cuss words is WRONG. All it takes is one instance of German cursing to make me see the light.

ETA2: Also, where English has "you" as a form of adress, German has "Sie" (polite, respectful, distanced) and "du" (close, intimate, informal). Neither "Sie" nor "du" sounds right for people adressing the Doctor.

ETA3: Have found German LJ com called

das_fandom. I find this more amusing than I should.

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ETA: I finally understand why having the Doctor (or the Master) use cuss words is WRONG. All it takes is one instance of German cursing to make me see the light.

Agree compleeetely. Unless it's like--a VERY specific/intentional, discrete use, it's just so tonally weird for either it's not true. Also, 'young' language for classic Doctors and Masters is a big source of o_O for me.

Register is one of the things that I still find very difficult to emulate - Three, for example, sometimes uses very specific, old-fashioned and slightly odd oaths, and I envy writers who can't just re-use/imitate that sort of thing, but can think of a similar phrase and know "This is something Three would totally say!"

That's just TONS of English period lit, though? Like the only way modern Anglophone writers could get a feel for that way of speaking is basically eating Victorian and Edwardian novels for years. Or a bit later--I think my Five's a bit Brideshead Regurgitated. But there's no real way to develop that except reading the sort of books the people who wrote Three read, especially the kind of cleverer Boys Adventure material they may well have read when they were younger.

Okay, you have a point there. Still, until now I didn't realize just how crass even fairly mild cursing sounds out of their mouths.

Also: how do people read/write porn in their own language? I know I used to, but I just read an otherwise decently written fic and at the first explicit line my mind went NOOOO GET US OUT OF HERE and I had to stop. It's like discovering fanfic all over again...

Have you tried fandoms of actual German things? Because I find that makes a big difference in writing, at least in English vs. Japanese fandoms. There are times I've written for animes where I had to fight with the fic to make it sound normal instead of awkward, because it makes more sense in Japanese. I've ranted for hours on the fact we don't have a word for a more final good-bye.

But I can see why things might be more awkward in a different language, just because the original source has a certain flow to it. Like I'm sure there's some German equivalent to Three's way of speaking, but it still probably wouldn't flow quite right. It's like how dubbers used to like heavy southern accents for Osaka dialect. It drove me nuts, because it didn't suit the characters at all, at least not to me.

Cuss words are definitely a characterization thing. It doesn't work, because you never hear them say it in the show. It usually always throws me off when I'm reading. I know I've used them a handful of times, but usually I spend a while thinking on it and if I could find something else that flows better. It just takes them out of character otherwise, since they never use them in the show.

Speaking of 'you' and other forms of address, it's hard writing for Japanese fandoms some times for that reason too. Especially with non-gendered or 'mysterious' people. Because they can have entire conversations without mentioning a person's gender, which can lead to a great reveal or mystery, and trying to convey that sort of thing in English sucks. -_-;;; I've run into trouble with some of Clamp's non-gendered characters too, since you can't really use 'it'. Well, you probably can with Mokona, but Ashura-ou makes things difficult. Curse you, English and your inadequacies...

I don't know Japanese that well (despite the -san in my nick that's a relic from my anime days of yore) but the difference between Sie and du is a bit like the difference between -san and -chan, although not completely the same.

Actually, there's no proper equivalent of Three's sociolect in German. Obviously not, since Germany's class system is not very much like England's class system.

The problem with German things is that they're, well, German things. There's not much to fan there besides soaps I don't watch, soccer I haven't watched since I was 8, and Tatort (the German version of CSI... kinda). And German children's lit, which is too dear to me to trust the wilds of fandom with it.

I don't know it that well either, but when you listen to it so often, I think you're able to pick up the flow of it. And you do pick up things, here and there. It can make things awkward though, when you're trying to write for a character that speaks in third person and still make it sound normal. A lot of things don't always translate well. ^_^;;;

Hm... I wonder how he gets translated then. Anime dubbers have had a lot of the same problems with the Kansai dialect. Usually they just assign an obvious American accent (usually southern, which never sat well with me). That sort of thing is practically impossible to translate well, and the best you can hope for a lot of times is that the people who care about that sort of thing can tolerate whatever is chosen.

That does sound like a bit of a problem. Not even dubs? Cause I used dubs a lot for characterization when I was younger and not so well versed in anime-elitism. XD Well, I take that back. I know too many people in the industry to not listen to dubs, but still. I know I used to watch some of my favorite shows in French, back when I was trying to get better at learning the language. I suppose that wouldn't help with the fandom in general if they're used to watching in English though. It does sound tough.

No, obviously there are dubs, all foreign TV and cinema is dubbed in Germany (subbing is an exception, rarely used except for independent cinema that can't afford dubbing). But for some reason the fandoms of dubbed shows have the same problems - New Who aired in dubbed form, but the fanfic is still awkward. I really think the problem has something to do with fanfic as a genre (because almost all fanfic writers read fanfic before they write it, and thus pick up on how other fanfic writers write), not with the source material.

As far as I know Classic Who was never aired in Germany, so Three hasn't been translated.

Just chiming in to say that they did air Classic Who in Germany, but only 6's & 7's runs -- as well as "The Five Doctors", which is an especially trippy experience since they used the same voice actor for all the Doctors.

Ahahaha, what? The same voice?

I watched a tiny clip of that on youtube just now and it is... surprisingly okay? At least the voice they all got isn't bad. And there's German!Rassilon and a tiny bit of Romana. Six and Peri are also good! And they say "Sie" to each other, which is just right in their case.

Yup. The doctor talking to himself, even more so than in the original episode. ^^ (and the same VA of course also dubbed Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy)

The dubbing of the show in general appears to be pretty decent, considering the all the "funny" dubs they occasionally tended to do over here in the 70's and early 80's.

I have only seen bits and pieces of it too. An acquaintance of mine I met through fandom actually grew up with dubbed!Sylvester McCoy episodes (and imported tons of Classic Who on VHS from the UK back in the day) and he's been trying to find old VCR recordings of the dub for me, but so far, no luck. I'd love to watch more of it. Just for the curiosity factor.

Hm, interesting. I find it odd that it is so awkward in general. I mean, there are a lot of bad fics in English, but a lot of good ones too. One would assume that counts for most languages. It's kind of weird that it doesn't.

I'm now suddenly curious how Three would translate into any language. XD

as much as this sounds painful and weird, it looks like you have a lot of material to talk about from a linguistic perspective. albeit a weird perspective. it's interesting, also, to talk about translation in a fandom where it's so not a problem in canon - thanks, tardis! who knows what happens in episodes where they go to germany and the germans hear german?

I'll probably find something to write about, yes.

I think the lack of activity in das_fandom should be proof enough of how Germans on LJ prefer to just participate in the English speaking parts of fandom instead of copying and Germanizing what's already there. It's one of the only German wank!communities, and it's stone-dead! Ergo, there isn't even enough of a German LJ-Fandom to wank about!

(but perhaps you could share your findings on there?)

So, is it possible for you to write about how written language in the German fandom subculture got influenced by English? Because it sounds interesting, and definitely like something I recognize from trying to read German fanfic. And I say "trying" because, yes, there's a lot of akward syntax issues with missing verbs out there. (I'm absolutely certain there's been fics I really enjoyed too, but I couldn't come up with a single author's name. :/)

The fic quality seems to improve with the smaller fandoms, but I don't know whether that's because even English micro-fandoms tend to attract less badfic, or because almost all the small fandoms I ever looked up German fic for tend to not have large English speaking counter parts to influence them at, and also attract crowds of people who I don't believe would otherwise be into/and therefy not influenced by any popular, large English speaking fandoms and the fic/shipping-culture connected with them (this would be fandoms for obscure eastern European fantasy lit and even more obscure video games. The fic is rare and curiously also tends to focus on the settings, not on canon!characters. But then, video game fandoms tend to work differently in general, due to a lot of them being male-dominated)

Perhaps the problem is also that German fandom is several years behind Anglophone fandom in its development? I usually find fic that was written before 2004/5 difficult to read because it's not as good as newer fic, and the stuff I've found on fanfiktion.de so far reminds me terribly of nineties!fandom.

Very interresting!

Your icon illustrates the other side of this coin - the pain caused by foreign media that thinks it speaks German. Wie ist so lustig? indeed.

You can also go to the AO3 and select a language, if you haven't tried that already, they do have some fic in German on there.

Yes, I've figured that out already, and I'm using a fic on AO3 and its comments as one of my examples :)

Sorry! That's what happens when I leave something open in a tab for ages and then decide to reply to it, clearly.

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